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Dathorn Review

Posted by itspoopagain, 10-06-2003, 12:50 PM
I've been with Dathorn for a few months now. I'm starting to think a few months too long... For the first 3 months, things went smoothly. Support was helpful and responsive, servers were solid. Overall, I couldn't have been happier with the service, the level of performance, and the price. Then, for the past 3 months, things have been going downhill a bit. While support continues to be very responsive, I'd much rather have helpful, slow support than worthless, quick support. General enquiries don't seem to receive meaningful replies. Any suggestions of server issues are met with extreme resistance and generally pointed back at the customer...implying that its your fault that things suddenly stopped working, and its certainly up to you to figure it out. I've had files mysteriously dissappear and been plainly told that I was to blame. I know there's a huge element of "you get what you pay for" here. I'm just disappointed to see a previously solid webhost start to decline. One could argue that Dathorn is the victim of its own success, having expanded more than twofold in time I've been with them. That may be a valid point, but there's not much to recommend a company if they can't survive prosperity. I don't want to aim this entirely at Dathorn. Server uptime and lack of server loads have been commendable. I suspect they're "good of kind" in the field of cheap reseller hosts. The reality is, its just not feasible to provide good support (and apparently to take your customers seriously) at these price points and margins. If you're making any kind of money from the sites you host or you just value your time, you owe it to yourself to find a decent host. I don't know who to suggest, as I haven't yet found a company that provides a comparable service with quality support, though I have found this in individual website hosting, just not reseller hosting. I'd gladly pay 3-4 times as much to know that I wouldn't have to face denial and condescension every time I submit a support ticket.
Posted by APX, 10-06-2003, 01:08 PM
I would have disagree with you, but you are very much entitled to your own opinion. I have been with Dathorn since March, and have no problems at all. Sorry to see you having all these problems.
Posted by okihost, 10-06-2003, 02:32 PM
Have you spoke to anyone at Dathorn about what has been going on? I know the owner is a regular here so you could maybe contact him and see what type of response you get.
Posted by Derrick, 10-06-2003, 02:41 PM
Yes contact Andrew I am sure he will be able to tell you what is going own. Does Dathorn guarantee backups? I do not believe so, so if you data was lost it is your responsibility to back it up(which is a good idea anyways). Yes you do get what you pay for, I believe Dathorn still gives a little bit more than what you pay for but if it comforts you go with someone like httpme, okihost or a few other great hosting companies that frequent this site. You will pay more but i believe they are well worth it. Derrick
Posted by itspoopagain, 10-06-2003, 03:08 PM
Let me just reiterate that I think you probably can't do much better for the price. I consider it nearly miraculous to get solid uptime, fast servers in a quality DC, no overcrowding/overselling, etc., at that price. Its just that you can't expect to get real support/management on top of that. The money just isn't there. I understand that now. I'm not sure what I expected going in, but those first few months when I got what I needed in terms of support must have raised my expectations. I have been in contact with Andrew, as he's half of their support team, and if anything he's reinforced my conclusions about Dathorn. I can honestly say that I respect what he does. Its a quality service in many respects. We as customers just need to recognize what is not included when we pay Dathorn or any number of similar companies a relative pittance and then wonder what happened when we need support.
Posted by Dathorn-Andrew, 10-06-2003, 03:38 PM
This certain customer submitted a ticket stating that his/her scripts were not working. This is not something that we support. I made sure that everything on the server was running correctly (PHP via command line, etc) and that's as far as we cover. Supposedly this certain user had been using /usr/bin/php to execute PHP scripts which shouldn't have been the case /usr/local/bin/php is what should be used as that's where all of our default "good" binaries go to (as opposed to cPanel's creations). As for files disappearing, I don't even know where to begin with that honestly. They don't magically just find themselves deleted. Something or someone caused it, and it certainly was not us. One way or another the users account was used to delete them whether it be an insecure script, insecure permissions, someone physically logging in and deleting them, etc. No matther which was the cause, it's not our responsibility.
Posted by itspoopagain, 10-06-2003, 04:35 PM
I don't think its entirely appropriate to hash this all out here, Andrew, but if you insist.... Yes, that's exactly what I found out, but did you tell me that? No. I had to waste my time modifying scripts that had worked like a champ for a few months with /usr/bin/php, searching for solutions online, etc, before I tried /usr/local/bin/php and told you the solution. It seems to me that's not how support is supposed to work, unless I'm supporting you. I agree, files don't just delete themselves, but how a directory (outside of public root and 755 permissions) can lose all its files on 10/1 and maintain a modification date of 9/07 is beyond me. It wasn't a serious problem, as I have backups and they weren't critical files, but they just as easily could have been, and I don't particularly like the feeling of wondering if all my files are still there. I know I didn't do anything to cause them to be deleted. As far as support on that issue, a simple "we'll look into it" would have done nicely. Instead I was told that it was unequivocally my fault. It makes me wonder that if the DC burned to the ground, that would be my fault as well. I asked for no support on scripts. If you saw that all your cron jobs stopped running with no changes at all to the scripts or to the cron tab in months, you'd wonder WTF had happened and how to fix it. I didn't get any help on that and that was a bit of a wake-up call to me. The phrases "not something that we support" and "that's as far as we cover" stand out to me. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. You can't expect real support at this level of hosting. If you're lucky, there might be 15 minutes of support factored into your $15/month. If you're even luckier you'll never need it.
Posted by Dathorn-Andrew, 10-06-2003, 05:27 PM
I agree to an extent and I've always made it clear that we provide basic support. We support direct problems with our servers and cPanel/WHM. Not those that originate from customer software or anything along those lines. Each customer is expected to have a good level of knowledge and ability to work/troubleshoot independently. If you want someone to debug your scripts or look to see what's allowing your files to be deleted then you're going to be paying a lot more than we charge. We do not charge enough to sit there and spend hours to address such single-user problems (no one else has had any of the issues mentioned above).
Posted by itspoopagain, 10-06-2003, 06:24 PM
and I never asked anyone to debug my scripts or tell me why my files were deleted. IMO, its the job of any host, basic support or not, to keep the core services running as they have been or, failing that, notify users of any changes. When cron jobs that ran on a daily basis for months at a time all fail and files seemingly delete themselves, all on the same day, then clearly that wasn't done. You can't tell me that cron or PHP (as a service, not a language) don't need to function under "basic support."
Posted by Dathorn-Andrew, 10-06-2003, 08:49 PM
I didn't say that PHP wasn't one of them. Our PHP has run perfectly fine. We cannot help the fact that you were using the wrong path to it. They are two completely different things, one was the CLI and the other as basic CGI. When we change something we notify everyone of such - and nothing was changed on our part. The very point that no one else had any problems still stands as well. Regardless, I'm done arguing this as it is going no where and doesn't belong here. I just wanted to share our side of the story if we're going to be given a negative review.
Posted by wheimeng, 10-06-2003, 09:15 PM
Dathorn is doing their job fine, web host is not supposed to handle your scripts or any codings unless they have agreed to deal it for you. However, if anyone that has offered to help you, it would be courtesy NOT obligation.
Posted by itspoopagain, 10-06-2003, 10:43 PM
I'm not sure you can talk about the wrong path when you couldn't even tell me what the correct path was. BTW, in case you're wondering where I got /usr/bin/php from in the first place, take a good long look. And just because you don't know or can't explain what happened doesn't mean nothing happened. What doesn't help is telling a customer that its somehow their fault. I have no way to alter anything that would change the path to PHP.
Posted by FHDave, 10-06-2003, 10:53 PM
As the customer has said, suddently php binary was moved from /usr/bin/ to /usr/local/bin/; so the script that works fine for months suddenly won't work out of the blue. I would think it's the host's responsibility to tell the customers about changes like this. But there are always two sides on the same coin, so I can't/won't comment much here.
Posted by Dathorn-Andrew, 10-06-2003, 11:19 PM
That is absolutely not true. The PHP binaries were not moved or changed at all. Both still exist and work just fine but they are not the same. root@ [/usr/bin]# ls -la php* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 9151303 Aug 17 18:11 php* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1092 Aug 17 18:12 php-config* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 593 Aug 17 18:12 phpextdist* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1657 Aug 17 18:12 phpize* root@ [/usr/local/bin]# ls -ln php* -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 9332480 Aug 17 18:09 php* -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 1104 Aug 17 18:09 php-config* -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 593 Aug 17 18:09 phpextdist* -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 1669 Aug 17 18:09 phpize* root@cpanel24 [~]# /usr/bin/php -v PHP 4.3.2 (cgi), Copyright (c) 1997-2003 The PHP Group Zend Engine v1.3.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2003 Zend Technologies with Zend Optimizer v2.1.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2003, by Zend Technologies root@cpanel24 [~]# /usr/local/bin/php -v PHP 4.3.2 (cli) (built: Aug 17 2003 18:09:30) Copyright (c) 1997-2003 The PHP Group Zend Engine v1.3.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2003 Zend Technologies with Zend Optimizer v2.1.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2003, by Zend Technologies That's exactly the way that they are setup on all of our servers. None were touched at all. But these two are not the same thing. Depending on what you're doing it may be better to use one or the other.
Posted by itspoopagain, 10-07-2003, 12:00 AM
They are also not the same as they were before 10/1. Depending on which day of the week it is, it might be better to use one or the other. Look, the point I originally wanted to make here is that you can't expect good support/management for $13.50/month or anything near that. I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general I think that will prove to be true. Andrew wanted to get into specifics here and that tends to get ugly. I don't want to create any more bad blood here than necessary, since I may have sites hosted with Dathorn for some time to come. I still feel that its a good value for what it is...it just shouldn't be confused for what its not. Still, I stand by the assertion that: A. The effective path to PHP shouldn't have changed arbitrarily. B. I should have been told what the path to PHP should be when Andrew saw I was using /usr/bin/php thanks to his bad advice. I defy anyone to suggest otherwise.
Posted by AvailableHost, 10-07-2003, 12:40 AM
What's the purpose of your posting here, itspoopagain? Why not post it in Dathorn's open support forum which other clients are on the same your server will help you?
Posted by Esr Tek, 10-07-2003, 12:57 AM
The purpose was for a review, try reading the title and thread before you post
Posted by CrazyTech, 10-07-2003, 07:08 AM
I think he's reffering to the rest of the thread that is probably more suited for the the Dathorn forums, but I understand both sides wanting to post here. I have to agree with him though this thread is useful at first, but turns into about nothing but squabbling.
Posted by Esr Tek, 10-07-2003, 07:57 AM
Agreed CrazyTech, however I do not feel it was the fault of the Original Poster.
Posted by SilveR_Pixel, 10-07-2003, 09:47 AM
IMO, anyone who signs up with a reseller account should have a particular level of web hosting knowledge, or should not be there at all. Ive been with Dathorn for months now and everything has been fine. Andrew answers are my questions RELATED to what he does in record time. You will probably not see any host debug your scripts, no matter how much you pay. Many of the larger hosts have too little time for do that. My suggestion: Learn how to interact with a webhosting environment such as PHP and KNOW what can go wrong with your scripts and where. Im a professional php coder, I do it for a living. Ive had abosuletly no problems with my scripts. Perhaps its the way you code them?
Posted by trustedurl.com, 10-07-2003, 09:54 AM
I don't think he was asking for script debugging. I think the problem was that he was using /usr/bin/php for months and then all of a sudden needed to use /usr/local/bin/php. That's got nothing to do with script debugging. Last edited by trustedurl.com; 10-07-2003 at 10:49 AM.
Posted by rrdega, 10-07-2003, 10:20 AM
Agreed! And its pretty obvious to me that the original poster does know his business... Something enviromental changed, it would seem from what we've been told. Else the scripts and crons would not all of a sudden cease to operate.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 10-07-2003, 10:50 AM
No, it's your fault... shouldn't have had coffee this morning! j/k. Things don't just 'stop working'.
Posted by Laci, 10-07-2003, 10:56 AM
First dont attack me , I dent easily this might be a little off topic but I have a question , if your paying 15$ a month lets say you should then expect what kind of support opposed to paying lets say 30 or 40 a month Ive read this thread re the php issue and I read another where the person need info on how to set up nameservers (which wasnt a covered support issues either) I agree resellers should know alot of whats involved but untill youve done it , where are you supposed to get your experience from? so does low cost = no/limited support by its very nature? didnt mean to hijack the thread
Posted by trustedurl.com, 10-07-2003, 11:06 AM
1: 2: Well, sadly price isn't always an indicator of support. However, it is very difficult to provide good support at very low margins/costs.... 3: True to both. 4: I would say no, but these two issues should imho be included in even the most limited support. Nameserver IPs and php paths seems pretty basic stuff that should be included... I mean, is the client supposed to guess the answers?
Posted by Dathorn-Andrew, 10-07-2003, 11:36 AM
As for the nameserver issues, we given them the IP addresses necessary and some instructions that are included in their first welcome e-mail. Beyond that any resonable amount of knowledge can easily accomplish what needs to be done. Contrary to popular belief, apparently, we don't make our customers guess the nameserver IPs. If you're going to say something, please do so only after you know that it is true. Then again, it's only our competitors coming up with this nonsense. Make your own conclusions.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 10-07-2003, 01:56 PM
That wasn't directed to you (note that off topic)... and besides I remember something like that in this thread: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hreadid=188148 but that has been resolved by now. Also, I don't consider us competitors, we're aiming at totally different markets... No need to be overly sensitive.
Posted by Dathorn-Andrew, 10-07-2003, 03:18 PM
And that's where the reasonable amount of knowledge should come into play. If not, there is an overwhelming amount of information and help available via our forums. We can't hold everyone's hand to show them how to fill out a simple form at their registrar with 4 fields of which you are already given the information for. Customers that buy accounts from us are expected to understand such basic issues. I would have even thought that the difference between "view unresolved tickets" and "view all tickets" would be obvious, but apparently that is not the case.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 10-07-2003, 03:21 PM
I understand what you're saying, but not every customer knows this. As I said we're targetting totally different markets and personally I don't have a problem telling the client how to do it... but again, different markets, different rules...
Posted by Laci, 10-07-2003, 03:30 PM
wow hostile , your right you need a certin type of client .............
Posted by CrazyTech, 10-07-2003, 04:52 PM
Never said the thread starter caused it, just that it's past the point of much relavence to this board. Each host has his/her own niche, we can leave it at that for now. The rest of this should simply be settled outside of this board at the company it orginated from.
Posted by artvision, 10-07-2003, 05:59 PM
Andrew, I think, that you can solve a problem with uneducated clients very easily!!! Simply do a written examination before each new purchase and if the client cannot take examination, then you will not take its order! So, at you highly educated resellers will stay only!!! Unfortunately, in this case, with you there can be only 40 - 50 % from the present clients, but so, you will have less cares!
Posted by ChrisTech, 10-07-2003, 11:49 PM
The forums @ dathorn are quite good. Almost every question a person new to reselling has is answered there. Its just the oh so hard work of using that nifty search feature. When I started in March I didn't know anything about reselling, I just came to host my couple domains. Many people on the forums are quite helpful, as well as there is a downloadable help file on them too.

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