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Warning about [not allowing overselling]
| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-01-2005, 09:16 PM |
| Follow this
Lets say you get a broadband connection that allows 20 GIG monthly traffic. Then, when you try to go on the internet for the first time your connection is cut. You contact your broadband provider to ask why youve been cut off and they advise you Sorry, your computer can handle much more than 20 GIGS in a month so youll have to go up to the next higher plan.
But wait, I havent even used one single byte of the 20 GIG bandwidth Ive just paid for!!!
Sounds pretty lame doesnt it. In fact, the federal authorities would shut this broadband supplier down in an instant if this were the case.
Host Gator are doing exactly the same thing in the hosting world. Host Gator do NOT allow you to utilize the space and bandwidth you pay for. They base their reseller plan usage on the hosting plans you invent nothing to do with how much space or bandwidth your hosted domains actually use.
In my opinion this is grossly unethical and should be stamped out once and for all. Luckily there are not too many left practicing this.
I attempted to add my hosting accounts to their aluminum plan. Despite my hosting account using less than 10% of the allowable space and less then 6% of the allowable bandwidth (from previous plan stats), the system shut me out. Why? because of the plans I invented.
A call to their support department resulted in them suggesting I upgrade to a higher plan. I nearly put my fist through the monitor as I explained I had just paid them for 5,000 Meg of space and 5GB of bandwidth and I demanded to be allowed to use just a fraction of it. But no, not with Host Gator.
Now this is where the con comes in. Host Gator call it overselling - a term used to suggest there is something wrong in wanting to utilize what youve paid for. They say overselling leads to overloaded servers and reliability issues. Let me say this as clearly as I can , this is absolutely, totally FALSE. Its a LIE. Overselling DOES NOT overload servers. The person who decides how many hosting accounts reside on a certain server is the one to decide this. Hey Host Gator, your time using this term to scare people over to you is finished.
I moved to Reseller Zoom (resellerzoom.com) where they allow you to utilize all the space and bandwidth you pay for.
And this is where it got interesting. In my WHM there is a link to the specs on the server, i.e. what CPU, how much RAM, what size hard disks and how many and what % they are utilized. Comparing the Host Gator reseller plan I had to my new Reseller Zoom reseller plan, Host Gator had larger hard disks filled to higher %s yet had less CPU power and RAM than the Reseller Zoom server. The power and available space was certainly in Reseller Zooms favor. So I dont want to hear the overselling=overloaded line again, its a total and utter lie.
I remain somewhat livid that a host is still out there that actively does not allow users to utilize space and bandwidth they pay for. How many of you have been forced to pay for higher plans with Host Gator when you could move to an ethical and honest host like Reseller Zoom and comfortably fit all your accounts in a less expensive plan and perhaps be on a damn sight faster server as well?!?!.
So, take this as a prudent warning to anyone looking for a reseller account. You have two main choices:
1. Get a reseller account from a host that allows you to use the space and bandwidth you pay for (resellerzoom.com).
.... or ....
2. Get a reseller account from a host who doesnt allow you to use the space and bandwidth you pay for. (hostgator.com)
Im posting this because if I can prevent someone from experiencing the terrible costly trouble I went through after being conned by Host Gator then its worth my time.
Finally, Im not connected to resellerzoom.com (other than being a customer). There will sure be other good quality hosts out there that allow you to utilize the space and bandwidth you pay for, resellerzoom.com is only mentioned because of my personal experiences with them they are a first rate honest host and yes, you get to use what you pay for!!!!!!!!
Jumbuck
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| Posted by RocketFlow, 09-02-2005, 03:46 AM |
| Sorry for your bad experience, but glad you found a new host that seems to make you happy.
Just wanted to comment on your claim that overselling does not overload servers. Well, by definition, it does! If you sell more than what your server can handle, you are necessarily overloading it. Many reasons for this. As an example: if you saturate your hard drive, its performance decreases. You should never fill it beyond 80% of its capacity if you want to keep reasonable performance. A host that oversells its server is much more likely to have its hard drives filled beyond 80%. If all users on the server use 100% of what they are allowed to use, the drive would be filled at 100%.
So yes, overselling does overload servers. I can't see it any other way!
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-02-2005, 04:21 AM |
| Thanks for you reply RocketFlow but what you say is totally wrong.
You are missing the fundamental basics and this is part of the con job companies like Host Gator are trying to perpetrate unto unsuspecting hard working decent people like yourself.
I'll expain........
Lets say I owned a server that had, say, one x 100 GIG hard drive. The server was allowed 1,000GIG bandwidth limit per month from the datacentre.
I sold only 2 GIG space/10 GIG bandwidth reseller accounts.
Now, let me take off about 10 Gigs for the operating system and associated stuff from the Hard Drive. This leaves me with 90 GIG vacant on the hard disk and a full 1,000 GIG per month bandwidth.
I decide (and this is the key here, its ME as the server owner and operator who is deciding - just as it is Host Gator who decides) to have a maximum of 35 reseller accounts on that server. This means that if every one used 100% of their PAID space it would only total 70 GIG space used. Leaving about 20 GIG in reserve.
Each reseller account can "oversell" their heart out until they ACTUALLY use their paid space and bandwidth. NO, this will NOT bring down the server. NO, this will not overload the server. NO, this will not saturate the hard disk. Because the space is always there, the bandwidth is always there and THEY HAVE PAID FOR IT. SO I HAVE THE SPACE READY FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY USE!!!!!
I suspect this is why Host Gator won't allow thier reselling hosting clients to use all the space and bandwidth you pay for, because if you did it would bring down the server because they must have so many crammed on their hard disk - no space left.
Those that advertise to allow "Overselling" know they have the space and bandwidth available for their clients to utilise - as it should be because they have paid for it.
Those that don't allow "Overselling" know they hanven't got any space left and are gambling on people only using a small part of what they pay for, otherwise their servers go ka-put.
Power to the hosting operations that do the right thing by their customers and allow them to use the space and bandwidth they pay for!!! And for Host Gator, I hope you are closed down becauuse of your unethical business model.
Jumbuck
Last edited by Jumbuck; 09-02-2005 at 04:29 AM.
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| Posted by anzenketh, 09-02-2005, 05:52 AM |
| One comment from what I know the thing that takes down the server is the number of connections to the server at any one time.Not over a specified period of time. Apache By default limits these connections to 150 even though it can be set for higher.
However at the same time. You got one of 2 choices when setting up accounts.
Choice one Cap number of accounts by bandwidth not allowing the reseller to oversell.
Or choice 2 Cap the number of accounts that a reseller can make by the number of accounts that he/she creates.
The first is better for a marketing strategy. The second is better for server reliability because that puts the control of the number of accounts on the server thus limiting the number of connections or clients.
Anyone tell me if i am wrong but this is my understanding on how Apache works.
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| Posted by Revo.In, 09-02-2005, 06:55 AM |
| Well, this topic has been discussed before. People have retorted about HostGator before, but what they don't realize is that Overselling isn't good for a server's health. You might want to use the Search feature to look at similar threads.
I won't go on & on about it, you can search here at WHT & you'll find more than enough posts to help you decide.
Best of Luck.
Last edited by Revo.In; 09-02-2005 at 06:58 AM.
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-02-2005, 07:47 AM |
| Jumbuck,
Have you ever run a website host before?
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-02-2005, 07:48 AM |
| Hey, YipeeTechnologies, what you are saying is rediculous.
How can letting people use the space and bandwidth they have paid for be bad for the server's health if the space and bandwidth is there waiting for them?!?!?!?
If you have a 10 GIG hard disk on your computer how is using 5 GIG bad for it???
Its the server owner who determins how many reseller hosting accounts are on a server. The reseller account holder uses only what he pays for.
Haven't you read my post above??
Geezzz.......
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| Posted by Revo.In, 09-02-2005, 08:06 AM |
| See, I think that I have to get into the figures stuff.
Lets see, suppose you have a 5GB Space account & you sell 500mb space accounts. That means 10 accounts without overselling.
Now suppose you decide to oversell >
Lets suppose that 5 of your clients use only 200mb of their space at the moment & the rest of the 5 use use 300mb.
Now, that means that the total space used is: 5*200+5*300 = 2500mb, i.e. half of the original one.
Now, according to you, you should have the capability of selling this 2500mb too (which is a part of your client's space for which they have paid).
If you sell this 2500mb too, and suppose some of your earlier clients (who used 200mb before) start using 400mb out of their 500mb, your reseller account's space will be finished, so you won't be able to support that 200mb * 5 = 1000mb.
But your clients are doing nothing wrong, they paid for 500mb & have just used 400mb, so you have to provide it. Now you have to either upgrade to a better package or loose those clients & have a bad name for your company.
Plus, with overselling, you have no idea when these clients start using the full amount of resources that they have paid for. You have to pray that they do not use their full (or even 80% of the) quota.
You have to sell your space one. If you have sold 500mb to your clients, its sold. You can't sell it again if the clients are not using their full 500mb. Because you have already taken the money for it.
I hope understand some of what I said above.
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| Posted by Chris_M, 09-02-2005, 10:40 AM |
| Where are you getting this information? Do you know as a fact that all hosts that dont offer overselling, dont have the space? What about those of us that dont offer overselling because we want to offer STABILITY to our clients? Not every host wants to cram as many hosts/domains as they can on a server and hope for the best, some of us would rather keep some resources free for the unexpected. I also fail to see what is unethical about Host Gator not allowing overselling. If you had done your homework before signing up, you would have found out that they dont offer overselling.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-02-2005, 11:22 AM |
| OK, so the total space a reseller can use is 5 GB, i.e. the total space all his domains use is 5 GB because he has paid for it. O.K.
Presto, you've just discovered the con. What account space you sell is totally irrelivant, you can sell 1,000 x 1 GIG accounts, whatever, its all irrelivant - IT IS NOT SPACE YOU OR YOUR CLIENTS ARE USING. Its what your total domains USE that is the key. A reseller is not buying imaginery space, he is buying REAL SPACE TO USE. Get it.....USE. The same goes for the domains you host, you allow then to USE a particular space level and they can use all of it or little of it, its up to them, its their hosting account.
O.K. that means these five accounts are using 1 GB of my 5GB space I've paid for. So there is 4 GB sitting unused that I've paid for. O.K. I hope you can see this so far.
Yes, so lets take stock here, you've paid for a 5 GIG account and your hosted domains use 2,500GB. So 2,500MB space is sitting unused that you've already paid to use. O.K.
Wait, what's this "selling" word creeping in again. This is about using the space you pay for. I have paid to USE 5GB of space yet the total of space used is only 2.5GB. This means I have 2.5 GIG space left to USE. Got it?
This is what its all about, growth. If the TOTAL amount of space USED by my hosted domains ever exceeds the 5 GB I've paid for I simply upgrade to the next higher plan, and trust me, hosts love it when resellers upgrade. But notice here this is about my hosted domains USING the space I've paid for.
Not at all. All my hosted domains can use as much space as their own accounts allow so I can upgrade once the total of my domains ACTUALLY USE the 5GB of space I've already paid for.
No. If they use 500mb of space then its USED. Get it right, I'm buying space for my hosted domains to USE. USE.
Here comes this "sell" word creeping in again. Its got nothing to do with selling anything its got everything to do with USING space I've paid for. And everyone of my clients know they can use 100% of the space in their hosting accounts if they choose to.
It can't get more simplier, a reseller has the right to use every byte of the space and bandwidth they have paid for just as their hosted domains do.
No matter which angle you see it from, if a reseller pays for 5 GB of space to be used by his hosted domains, then damn it, he has a right to make sure his hosted domains get to use every bit of it without being forced to upgrade before his 5 GB has been used. End of story. But try telling that to Host Gator.
Surely you can follow that.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by Chris_M, 09-02-2005, 11:40 AM |
| OK, if you sell 10, 500 mb accounts and only 1gig gets used, how is the remaining space there for you to sell? If you already gave each customer the space, how can you resell it? Just becasue they arent using all of the space today doesnt mean that tomorrow they wont be. If you were able to continue selling space, In your example, people would have to wait till you upgrade your account before they could use all of the space that you promissed them. In my opinion, once you sell some space, that space is sold. I wouldnt try to resell it hoping that my clients dont need it. If you have to sell plans so cheap that the only way you can make a profit is by overselling, you might want to rethink your business plan.
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| Posted by Revo.In, 09-02-2005, 11:42 AM |
| I see that you are quite firm on your opinions, and nothing that I say to help you would make a difference. So, well, Best of Luck!
Hopefully, someday you will (like so many others) realise the importance of no-overselling. I hope you succeed in your endeavour.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-02-2005, 11:45 AM |
| No, not at all. There are many hosts the don't and do allow overselling that keep a tight rein on the amount of accounts on the server. I'm lucky enough to be with one right now.
If you get "stability" from preventing your resellers from using the space and bandwidth they have paid for then what does that suggest about your services?? Don't mean to be rude but in all honesty if a webhost can't offer stability when their resellers are using the space and bandwidth they have paid for then this is not good. Not good at all.
I agree. But this is about decisions made about how many reseller accounts are going to be allowed on a server. Hardly has anything to do with resellers using the space they paid for. Unless of course you pack in as many reseller accounts as you can and hope they don't use the space they have already paid to use.
HostGator DO NOT allow resellers to utilse the space and bandwidth paid for this is from personal experience. Instead, they base their reseller usage off the hosting plans a reseller "invents".
As has happened to me I paid for a 5 GIG space account and was prevented from even finished adding my domains before it told me I had exceeded my space limits. BUT, the total actual space used by my domains had not even reached 250MEG. So you can understand why I say that. That is, with Host Gator I bought a 5 GB space reseller plan and it could NOT fit 250 megs worth of hosted domains space. Unethical because they took my money and did not allow me to use the space I paid for. That's why.
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| Posted by Chris_M, 09-02-2005, 11:57 AM |
| OK, here is another example. Lets say you have 5 gigs of space that you oversell on. You sell each client 100mb space a,nd they each use less than 1/3 of that so you keep adding accounts and adding accounts. Now all of a sudden, you have 1000 accounts in you reseller account, and you think that is not going to effect the Stability of a server? At what point do you think about the quality of service that you are gonna offer your clients? What about all of the other resellers on the same server? If they all do the same as you, now you have a server that is totally overloaded and way unstable. If that is the kind of enviornment you want for your clients, be my guest. I would rather be on a server that has had limits impossed on it in order to keep it stable and to keep all of hte clients happy. Remeber, even though you are on a reseller account, you are still in a shared situation and are not the only one on the server.
I will say this again, if the only way you can make a profit is from overselling on a reseller account, you might want to rethink your plan, as competeing on price alone will most certainly kill you.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-02-2005, 12:01 PM |
| To be fair to Host Gator, they did give me my money back. Just thought I'd add that.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-02-2005, 12:23 PM |
| OK, you've raised a good point, although quite an extreme hypothetical one at that.
Firstly I would NOT prevent all my resellers from using the space they paid me to use solely based on a fear that one of them is going to do as you say.
Secondly, if a reseller had 1,000 hosted domains I doubt that any normal reseller account would allow for the space and bandwidth needed to comfortably handle these numbers anyway. In fact, I would go so far as betting there is not a normal reseller host out there that would be comfortable hosting 1,000 accounts through a single reseller account anyway.
But you seem to be suggesting there is an association between letting your resellers use the space and bandwidth they pay for and the quality of service you provide. I can't understand that.
Are you meaning that by allowing your resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay you to use will bring down your servers or reduce the quality of the overall hosting enviornment you provide? Then if so, let me suggest you re-visit how many reseller plans you allow on a server. It about server management - and NOT about denying your resellers the right to use space they have paid you to use.
If you sell reseller accounts I would imagine you would want to ensure stability no matter whether your resellers are using 50% or 100% of the space and bandwidth they have paid you to use in the first place.
As I said before in my previous post, if the only way you get "stability" is by preventing your resellers from using the space and bandwidth they have paid you to use, then in my mind you are doomed. I hope you aren't suggestiing you do this?
Jumbuck
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| Posted by RocketFlow, 09-02-2005, 02:00 PM |
| Jumbuck, I think that your entire thought process is wrong because you start from a wrong assumption: you consider used space and sold space as two different things. As somebody pointed out in another response above, if you have sold 500MB of space to somebody, it should not matter if they use it or not: these 500MB have been sold and should be considered as "used". The customer who bought that space is entitled to use it, without notifying you, the seller, when they use it.
If you calculated that to keep your server stable and performant , you have 100GB available on your drive to sell hosting accounts, and if you sell only 500MB plans, you can have 200 customers on your server. Should they use part or all of their allocated resources, you know that the server will remain stable and performant, because you are within the range you initially calculated for a stable and performant server. Logical so far. At that time, you should consider that your server is entirely sold. If you start overselling, more customers will add more account, which will use more server resources, and your server is likely to become unstable and under-performant, because you are over your criteria of a stable and performant server.
Granted: if all your customers do not use all their allocated resource, you might still be in a stable and performant situation. This is probably why you say that USE is what overloads a server. Well, if you had not oversold in the first place, you would not have put yourself in the situation of over-using the server and as a consequence, of over-loading it.
Conclusion: overselling is what overloads a server.
I hope this proves my point to you now!
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| Posted by bas1968, 09-02-2005, 03:51 PM |
| I have had almost the same kind of experience with Hostdime. I had a 5000mb 50 gb reseller account and I was using 33 - 35 gb a month. But most of this bandwith was used by one of my customers (30 gb a month) and hostdime cut this account without any notice and didn´t respond any e-mails I have sent to their helpdesk. When I canceled my reselleraccount last week, they could respond my e-mails fast. The reason of closing the account were 15 open MySQL connections at the same time.
Very strange story because this was in the middle of the night with almost no visitors.
I am just writing this to tell future resellers to keep your eyes open. I had a lot of problems with the customer because he couldn´t understand te reason and after it gave me a lot of work to transfer all accounts to other servers.
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| Posted by Odd Fact, 09-02-2005, 04:44 PM |
| Jumbuck what domain did yo have at Host Gator and what domain do you have at Reseller Zoom?
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| Posted by Lev, 09-02-2005, 06:34 PM |
| I don't believe HostGator allows overselling (has the WHM option enabled) on their servers. Is that what you are yelling about? That they don't have this option enabled? If so, everyone who has read this thread has misunderstood what you were saying. Let us know if that is what you are talking about. Maybe this was a special?
On a different note, if HostGator enabled overselling for all their customers, they wouldn't be able to sustain their business model (pricing). But to know that, you'd probably have to know a bit more about the business of hosting than you currently do .
No offence, that's just the truth.
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| Posted by 01globalnet, 09-02-2005, 08:23 PM |
| Jumbuck, I cannot understand why you warn people about HostGator - everyone knows they do not allow overselling! It is clearly on their site - why did you sign up in first place??
Also, there are many other hosts that do not allow overselling - make a warning thread for each of them too!
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| Posted by Chris_M, 09-02-2005, 09:31 PM |
| Define what you mean by using the space and bandwidth. If a reseller buys 5 gigs of space and 30gigs of bandwidth then sells all 5 gigs of space and the bandwidth, but said resellers clients arent using half of what they are allotted, the resources are still used. What is so hard to understand about this?
I am not suggesting anything. My clients can always use up the resources allotted to them with out penalty. Once they cross the line, they can either upgrade accounts, or add more resources to the existing account. What I am saying is exactly what Rocketflow said, Conclusion: overselling is what overloads a server. Hosts set limits for a reason, and most of the time its to keep everything stable.
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| Posted by Website Rob, 09-02-2005, 11:05 PM |
| How did this thread get hijacked into discussing the two methods available for account setup -- Allocated vs Actual Use.
The OP stated they bought a Hosting package that provided 'x' amount of Web space & Data transfer. When they went to use what they paid for they couldn't. No matter what method is used/provided, sounds like the OP was on an overloaded Server or there was a bait 'n switch tatic going on.
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| Posted by Lev, 09-02-2005, 11:45 PM |
| Nobody hijacked this thread, I think most people misunderstood what the author was trying to say . This thread was corrected rather than hijacked. I think the author is saying that HostGator is rip off because they create their accounts using allocated use.
Here are some quotes:
Notice how the author says "the system," that would most likely mean automatic. I think he means that he can't create any more accounts because the accounts he created already use (well, are allocated) all the space of bandwidth and I know HostGator has overselling disabled. He also says "plans I invented," meaning he was "shut down" (by shut down, I believe he means that he can't create any more accounts) because of the large amount of space/bandwidth in each of his accounts and overselling is disabled.
HostGator called it overselling, additional proof to what I am saying. HG has that option disabled, and that is most likely what the author is complaining about. He may be using <1% of all the bandwidth space he has, but as the plans he created have so much allocated, and overselling is disabled, he is "using" all of his account.
Once the author clarifies exactly what he meant, I'll comment further.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 12:31 AM |
| No. If I am a server owner and allow the RIGHT number of reseller accounts on that server, the number of reseller accounts should be calculated on each reseller using 100% of what space and bandwidth I sell them. Don't forget this whole issue is about not letting resellers USE the space they pay for. Nothing else.
If I was a crook I'd sell heaps and heaps of reseller accounts jamming the server to the gunnels and tell my resellers "I don't allow overselling" thereby ensuring none of them (or at the most a very few) would ever get to use all the space they buy from me. Becuase if they did use the space I sold them I'd have no room for their accounts and it would perhaps bring down the server. This is my whole point. Look at this issue from the server owner's side.
Now, if I was a very cunning crook, I tell these reseller accoount holders "I don't allow overselling because it overloads the server, and you don't want that do you?. This is why I don't allow you to use what you pay for, so you better buya bigger plan."
Absolutely wrong. I can't believe you are in the hosting business. Overselling does NOTHING becuase its space that is NOT BEING USED for Gawd sake. This may come as a shock but blank unused space DOES NOT overload anything my friend. It's OVERUSAGE that overloads servers. If your resellers use all the space and bandwidth they pay for and it overloads your servers you have TOO MANY RESELLER ACCOUNTS ON THE SERVER. This is NOT, I repeat, NOT, the reseller's fault. A reseller can and should be able to use all the space he has bought from you for the purpose of serving his hosted domains without the fear its going to bring down your server!
So you're saying that if HostGator were to allow each of its resellers to use the space and bandwidth they have paid for, it would ruin them? Then what does this tell you about HostGator? There are many, many hosts out there that DO allow their resellers to utilise the space and bandwidth they have paid for and are doing very well indeed. And why? Because these server owners have correctly determined how many reseller plans to allow on that server. Space/bandwidth/costing would have been calculated their business model to ensure their rerseller customers can USE what they pay for.
Once again people, this issue is about what happens when a reseller USES all the space and bandwidth for his domains that hs has paid for. I'm reading comments that this would bring down servers, ruin companies and in general cause havoc to those that don't allow overselling. I agree, because some companies have way, way too many reseller accounts crammed on their servers.
A server should (and does when owned and operated by honest and reputible businesses - and there are many out there) guarantee that each reseller can comfortably use 100% of the space and bandwidth he/she has purchased. This then means the reseller can use 100% of the space and bandwidth he has bought for the purpose of serviing his domains without fear he will overload anything.
Instead of arguing with me just take on board the heads up I'm giving everyone. By getting a reseller account that allows you to utilse the space and bandwidth you pay for, you will immeasurably impove your bottom line, and if you get lucky like me and choose Reseller Zoom, you can then offer your hosted domains some very seriously fast server power.
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| Posted by Lev, 09-03-2005, 02:51 AM |
| That's exactly what I am saying. The same is true for most budget companies, with at least some quality. You'll find that if a company already offers large quantities of space and bandwidth for a cheap price, 9 out of 10 times they will have overselling disabled. That's when the company has been around longer than a couple of months . ResellerZoom is an exception, for now.
What does that tell me about HostGator? Nothing, that's their business model, and to tell you the truth, in profits it works out pretty well . If they allowed overselling (in WHM) and kept their current costs, chances are, HG would be out of business or quality would decline sharply.
If you don't like companies with such plans, go with those that have a different model, they will allow lesser amounts but usually also allow resellers to oversell.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 03:18 AM |
| To sumarise....
Those that allow overselling - Have the space and bandwidth ready for their resellers to use. These hosts will have limited a limited number of resellers on the server guaranteeing that ALL resellers can use ALL the space the reseller has paid to use.
Those that don't allow overselling - can't allow their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they paid for because if they did it would bring down the server - because they perhaps have way too many reseller accounts on the server. Resellers are then made to pay for space they will never get to use.
I know which one provides a more stable enviornment for my hosting clients. But my guess is companies like HostGator are betting nobody can see it.
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| Posted by ldcdc, 09-03-2005, 09:37 AM |
| Jumbuck, what Lev is trying to explain to you is that generally there is a tradeoff between price, quality and overselling being enabled or not. That tradeoff is often host specific.
Given a particular provider (with its specific prices), it can offer either relatively more expensive hosting with overselling enabled, or less expensive hosting with overselling disabled.
Also, in a way, overselling enabled means that the levels of overselling on the server are left at the will of the resellers on the server, while overselling disabled means that any overselling done is left at the will of the reseller hosting provider.
That said, historically speaking, hosts have managed to be reliable using both business models, for that is what they are, business models.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 09:54 AM |
| Agreed. And well put ldcdc.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by hfohrman, 09-03-2005, 11:12 AM |
| I would like to put this of overselling in a different way.
There is many ways to oversell.
First the one about a reseller. Yes if I have overselling OK on my reseller system like I sell 20*500MB on my 5 Gb account. That can be ok but it for shure gives me extra work in control. As long as they ony load 25% each it's OK. But if I se it grows then I must be proactive in upgrade when they have used lets say 4GB. So Oversell give me more job and I must be more proactive.
Last . There is different types of oversell. Who oversell.
One example. If I have a VPS with 10 GB disk and 100GB BW and start to sell resellers of 2/20. Then is the question who I shall discuss. And it is 4 ways.
1. I allow oversell for my resellers. So in that case I can expect that I can max sell 5 packages.
2. I do not allow oversell but still only sell 5 packages.
That means that I have a host that with a lot of GB not used.
3. I do not allow overselling but I oversell by myself. So I guess that my customers only use 50% so I sell 10 accounts.
4. I allow overselling and also oversell myself.
So . What is best? No2 everyone says. But maybe not in price.
OK a company that works with nr 4. Stay away.
But what is the most bad thing? No1 or No 3?
And I can garanty you that no company uses No 2.
Hans
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| Posted by RocketFlow, 09-03-2005, 12:23 PM |
| With all due respect, you are mistaken on that one!
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| Posted by jneufeld, 09-03-2005, 02:32 PM |
| Host Gator's no overselling policy exists for one reason only, and that is to make it difficult for clients to utilize all the space they paid for.
I wouldn't be surprised if Host Gator oversells themselves.
All these arguments about "what if your clients start using all the space are ridiculous" because any responsible Web Host can design an overselling policy which, in combination of usage monitoring can assure that customers will always have the space they need.
Think of it like a bank. If every person at The bank of Podunk, wanted there money out at once, the bank wouldn't be able to support this. Almost every bank in world is "overselling" your money at a very local level. When "overselling" is done properly it works.
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| Posted by ldcdc, 09-03-2005, 02:41 PM |
| Exactly. And some hosts prefer to have direct control over any overselling done on the server, rather than delegating that control over to their resellers. Certainly, this doesn't fit or please all resellers, but this is a free market with plenty of options. Each individual/business is free to choose the reseller hosting privoder that fits his/her/its needs best.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 07:29 PM |
| Yes. And it doesn't need much clever thinking to work out why, and this is because I believe they cram way too many reseller accounts on their servers and are only surviving by preventing their resellers overselling, i.e. stopping resellers from using the space and bandwidth they pay for. Which I believe is a grossly unethical business model.
IMHO "We don't allow overselling" should, in actual fact, be a glowing warning to people to stay clear. What they are really saying is "We don't have the room to allow you to use all the space and bandwidth you pay for."
Whereas, if overselling is allowed the host will more than likely have the room for resellers to use all of what they pay for.
My original point, i.e. the start of this thread, was to warn people that HostGator don't allow you to use the space and bandwidth you pay for, whereas other hosts like resellerzoom.com, do allow you to use the space and bandwidth you pay for.
But after reading some of the comments made in this thread I still see people believe its the other way around. There is nothing I can do about that, let them continue to pay for space and bandwidth they wil never be allowed to use. I, on the other hand, use the space and bandwidth I pay for for all my hosted domains!!!
Jumbuck
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-03-2005, 07:32 PM |
| HostGator has a very solid reputation. I personally don't believe that they would be so hypocritical as to oversell The Planet's services while not allowing their own resellers to oversell. Does anyone agree (or disagree) with me here?
I mean, seriously - this is quite a presumptious assumption you're making here. Perhaps you should contact them and ask them this question outright instead of accusing them of something that you don't know whether they do or not.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 08:11 PM |
| Let me make this as clear as I can here.
HostGator DO NOT allow you to use the space and bandwidth you pay for. I'll reapt this, you are NOT ALLOWED to use the space or bandwidth you pay for. Other hosts that sell reseller plans do. This is from personal experience.
Now, if you think operating a business where you are paid for something but can't or won't (I believe its can't) deliver to the customer what they have paid for is OK then that's fine for you.
Tell me, do you block your hosted domains when they want to use the space and bandwidth they pay you for? No, because you'd be out of business in a flash.
Its not a presumption, accusation of assumption, its FACT my friend. And what's more I invite HostGator to make a comment. If they are honest they will admit it 100%.
But I suspect they won't because they stand to be exposed for the crooks I personally belive they are. Very very clever ones because they have managed to stave of ruin because of the "not allowing overselling" scare tactic. And yes, I CAN and DO believe this. Absolutely.
Jumbuck
Last edited by Jumbuck; 09-03-2005 at 08:17 PM.
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-03-2005, 08:16 PM |
| Ok, so let me get this straight - perhaps I've misunderstood!
Just for the sake of illustration, you payed for 2000 MB of space and 10 GB of bandwidth and they're only letting you use a maximum of 1000 MB of space and 5 GB of bandwidth?
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 08:27 PM |
| Hello globalwebbrands,
Here........
But its not only me who has been caught paying for space and bandwdith you are not allowed to use with HostGator. Many are still quite merrily paying for space and bandwidth with HostGator they will NEVER be allowed to use. It should be a concern to anyone who cares about this industry.
Other hosts like resellerzoom.com (where I am now) allow their resellers to use all the space and bandwidth they pay for, because resellerzoom.com have calculated their server usage to allow for each reseller to use what he/she pays for - a damn sight more stable and faster and honest and ethical business model, that's for sure.
Jumbuck
Last edited by Jumbuck; 09-03-2005 at 08:31 PM.
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-03-2005, 08:29 PM |
| Ah Ok, I think I get it now. You weren't even to the point of overselling yet?
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| Posted by jneufeld, 09-03-2005, 08:38 PM |
| Globalwebbrands, heres the deal:
You pay for 1000mb space and 100gig bandwidth. You have two customers under your reseller account. You give them each 500mb space and 50gig bandwidth.
So, you have allocated all of your space to your customers. Now... the issue: even if those customers don't use that space, you are no longer allowed to allocate the unused bandwidth to other customers.
With host gator you don't pay for usable bandwidth, you pay for allocatable bandwidth. If you happen to perfectly create all accounts with exactly the amount of space and bandwidth that they will use, then you will be able to use all of the space and bandwidth you paid for.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 08:38 PM |
| You mean overusing? I paid for REAL space and bandwidth to use. I think most resellers get a reseller account to USE space and bandwidth. How much they sell is irrelivant because its space and bandwidth that does not exist. And if HostGator try and tell me they want me to pay for space and bandwidth that doesn't exist then this would be a complete and utter joke - here I have some "air" for you to buy!!!
Its all about usage. I paid HostGator for a reseller account so my hosted domains could use some, just a fraction, of the space and bandwidth I paid for. But this is not possible with HostGator.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-03-2005, 08:51 PM |
| Exactly. This way they sure as hell collect your money for a set amount of disk space and bandwidth but yet are almost guaranteed you will never get to use it - because they won't let you. Great business model!
Most other hosts have calculated the number of reseller accounts on a server carefully to ALLOW for each reseller account to comfortably USE all of the space and bandwidth they pay for.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-03-2005, 09:14 PM |
| Ok, I see now - you guys are trying to be deceptive in your explanations. HostGator and any other host has every right to keep their resellers from overselling in this manner. If you pay for xxx amount of space or bandwidth, that is indeed all you should get. HostGator runs an ethical operation - apparently, you guys don't.
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| Posted by RocketFlow, 09-03-2005, 10:34 PM |
| I would not put it that way. Overselling is a business model. It has its risks for sure, but it's not unethical.
As somebody else said earlier in this discussion, each host has a specific business model. Host Gator has their own business model. If you choose to resell for Host Gator, you have to accept that business model. If you don't accept it, you work with another provider. That's all.
I think the OP should consider working with a host provider that is compatible from an overselling standpoint. This will resolve all problems.
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-03-2005, 10:40 PM |
| I didn't mean overselling was unethical. It's not. And we even do it, but only at our picmeister.com website.
What I meant by that comment was that the deceitful way in which they tried to explain the situation was unethical. And it's more than likely an indication of the way they do business.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-04-2005, 01:31 AM |
| Absolute rubbish. You pay for space and bandwidth to use with HostGator yet you may never be allowed to use it. It can't get any more simplier, straight to the point and factual than that.
And what if you pay for xxx amount of space and bandwidth but DON'T get to use it, or more to the point, are NOT ALLOWED to use it?!?!? Read my previous posts, this is what the entire thread is about. Read it and learn.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by Website Rob, 09-04-2005, 07:27 AM |
| After reading a few more posts I think the following is what happened.
HG provides their Resellers with packages based on the Allocated Method.
Jumbuck was perhaps not aware of what the Allocated Method is or expected a package based on the Actual Use Method and never got it.
The term "overselling" when used in the Hosting Industry, is greatly mis-understood and usually used incorrectly. There is an easy to understand definition and one thing is for sure, the Actual Use Method gives a Reseller more 'bang for their buck' and should be mentioned specifically, if that is what a person wants, when checking out potential Hosters.
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| Posted by The3bl, 09-04-2005, 08:51 AM |
| Just the opposite you are allowed to use every bit of the space and transfer you paid for, if you sell 5 accounts of 1 gig each all 5 of those accounts are allowed to use their 1 gig of space. The difference is you are not allowed to deceive your customers by selling space and transfer you do not own or have the right to use.
Until you buy a dedicated server and allow unlimited overselling on it then do not claim to know what a reseller will do or not do.
I have seen resellers try and stick 300 or 400 domains on a 1 gig 10 gig package they had oversell rights on.
Load a server with 20 resellers like that and you can end up on a server with 3000 or 4000 domains on it way over sold with no way to upgrade all those accounts when they start using their oversold space.
You are throwing some pretty harsh words out there at HG and host that choose not to allow overselling. HG did not lie to you up front and tell you that you could oversell so they did not deceive you in anyway.
There are plently of host out there, if one does not meet your needs move on to one that does. No need to get hostle and claim you are being conned or lied to because their business model does not suit you.
There are plenty of resellers that like the no oversell model and are quite happy to have the added stablity it offers.
Next time do your research and ask your host before you sign up if they allow you to oversell and save yourself the confusion.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-04-2005, 09:01 AM |
| Its only in the hosting industry do you see an acceptance of a "business model" that in effect, prevents customers from using what they pay for.
In any other industry the perpetrators would be prosecuted under the relevant consumer laws and be shut down.
How HostGator remains operating is a mystery to me. But my bet is they will soon change to allowing their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they have paid for. At least one would hope so.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by The Stealthy One, 09-04-2005, 09:05 AM |
| Jumbuck,
From the way you talk, I just don't believe you have much experience in running a website host. Please take the time to learn what it's all about. Then check back in with us.
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| Posted by Website Rob, 09-04-2005, 10:04 AM |
| Sounds like you've had a bad Hosting experience at one time.
There is no "deceiving" when the Actual Use Method is used, just a different way of allowing access to the Resources a person has purchased.
At least you conditioned your statement by saying "unlimited overselling" -- especially since we know there is nothing "unlimited" on any Server. A smart Hoster providing the Actual Use Method will limit how many accounts a Reseller can create.
All these statements on which method is better makes no difference if a Server is not properly managed. And Servers improperly managed is the biggest problem today.
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| Posted by ldcdc, 09-04-2005, 10:05 AM |
| Jumbuck, you are naming Hostgator in this thread, but fact is there are plenty other companies doing the same thing. You think it's an unfair practice, but as some of us have tried to explain, it can have its benefits, even for you as a reseller.
Companies have these main methods to limit the overselling practice of their resellers:
1. Not enable overselling.
2. Limit the number of domains that they can host on the account.
3. Both.
If you don't care for any of those methods, get a host that doesn't interfere with the resellers' overselling practices in any way. It's your prerogative as a customer.
As for me, as long as the host is sincere with regard to the limitations of the service they're providing, I see nothing wrong with their offer.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-04-2005, 10:11 AM |
| You are absolutely wrong there my friend. My domains had used less than 250 megs space within a 5GB reseller account and HostGator shut me out saying I had used all the space I purchased. Now, if they had not refunded my money I was prepared to document every single file my domains used which clearly showed my hosted domains used less that 250 Meg. I also would have shown the athorities evidence I paid HostGator to use 5 GB space. No matter what angle you see it from I was not allowed to USE any of the 5 GB space I paid for. In short, I pay for it and was not allowed to use it. End of story. You may be happy paying for space you are prepared never to be allowed to use but my hosted domains have a right to use this space.
So your suggesting the solution to one bad apple is to deny all resellers from using the space and bandwidth they have already paid you for. Hmmm. What about putting a cap on the number of hosted domains a reseller can have. This seems a logical way to protect yourself rather than accepting money for space and bandwidth then turning around to tell them you won't allow them to use it - as HostGator have done with me.
I paid them to use 5 GB of space. It says it clearly. . . "5GB". They DID NOT ALLOW ME TO USE IT. Infact, not even a small bit of it. If that's not deceptive then I'd like to know what is.
If I can help educate people that they will more than likely end up paying for "mystery" space at HostGator, i.e. space they will never be allowed to use (as had hapened to me), when they can get REAL USEABLE space elsewhere, then why not alert others?
I see on many forums people warning others about scams and cons, and while I accept HostGator's activities are accepted as a "no overselling busines model" I nevertheless hope that my thread has perhaps saved people from making a very costly and unpleasant mistake.
Not allowing overselling does NOT bring stability. It's bad server management that overloads servers. If your resellers use all the space and bandwidth they pay for and it overloads your servers or it makes them unstable, then you perhaps have TOO MANY RESELLER ACCOUNTS ON THE SERVER. This is NOT, I repeat, NOT, the reseller's fault. A reseller can and should be able to use all the space and bandwidth he has paid you for for the purpose of serving his hosted domains without the fear its going to make your server unstable.
If there is a stablity issue because you allow your resellers to use all the space and bandwidth they paid you for then perhaps you need to re-think how many reseller you are putting on the server. Allow for the fact that each of your resellers will use 100% of the space and bandwith they are enitled to use... I mean.... THEY HAVE PAID TO USE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE for Gawd sake!!
Hosts that allow overselling, i.e. allow you to use what you pay for will generally have all the room ready for you to use ALL of what you've paid for. They would have calculated very carefully how many reseller accounts they allow on a server.
Hosts that don't alow overselling I suspect CAN'T allow you to use all the space and bandwidth you pay for because if you did it would blow the damn server up. Because with the "no overselling' model they perhaps can cram way too many reseller accounts on a server without really being worried of running out of disk space - because they DON'T LET THEIR RESELLERS USE WHAT THEY PAY FOR.
And I repeat my invitation to HostGator to make a comment.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-04-2005, 10:38 AM |
| Yes. You make a good point - although I don't agree with it providing many benefits. But I mention HostGator because I have personal experience. I don't feel qualified to make a comment on any other company unless I have actually experienced it myself. I know people advance opinions on others which is good, I mean everyone is free to have an opinion... and I have mine, and it will be formed from personal experience.
I take on board what many have said and I am mindful that others see things differently. I guess this is one of the great things about forums like this, allows one to openly air opinions and hear what others have to say.
And finally, I must congratulate the administrators and moderators for allowing this thread to continue. Its a rather hot topic and opinions on the subject are divided. WHT have certainly proved to me that they provide a fair and open vehicle in which opinions and comments are shared. Its also a little comforting to know that no company is above being commented on. Well done WHT.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by Suffolk Designs, 09-04-2005, 11:05 AM |
| if you had 1gb space and 2 x 500mb accounts, are you saying that you were not allowed to upload 500mb data to each of these accounts ?
I think you would be allowed to, i think you are just upset as you were not allowed to sell space that you did not purchase...... which is perfectly reasonable.
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| Posted by Jumbuck, 09-04-2005, 11:30 AM |
| What the hell has "selling" space got to do with it. I am not buying imaginery "mystery" space, I am buying REAL SPACE TO USE. Exactly the same goes for the domains I host, I allow them to use a particular amount of space and they can use all of it or little of it, its up to them, its their hosting account. But one thing is for particular, I allow them to use it because they have paid for it.
Please don't tell me resellers are happy to buy "mystery" space, i.e. space they know they will never get to use.
If so then that's fine. But with me I buy space to use and if I pay for space to use and am not allowed to use it then in my book that's not right.
Thankfully there are many hosts that do allow resellers to use all the space and bandwidth they have paid for irrespective of the hosting plans they "invent". And I can tell you now, HostGator is NOT one of them. Period. And I will stand this point through think and thin.
Jumbuck
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| Posted by The3bl, 09-04-2005, 12:13 PM |
| Really how can they use all of what you do not have? You are selling space and transfer you do not own yet and may or may not get to own later. You are telling them I am going to give you 2 gigs of space but since you are only using 250 megs of it now I am going to sell the extra to someone else. What are you going to do if they start using it all and the host says well sorry that server is full?
I have quite a few of them that are real happy not to be on oversold servers with thousands of other domains.
My resellers can use every bit of space they are sold and they will never be asked to move to another server. If they buy 5 gig they can use every bit of that 5 gig the difference is their customer can use every bit of space they allocate to them also and they will never be asked to move to another server because they way oversold their allocated space the server is full.
Right now the provider you are on allows unlimted number accounts and overselling of space and transfer so what is protecting you and the other resellers from that 1 or 2 bad apples that decides it is a good idea to sell 300 1 gig accounts on that server?
Yes there are many host that allow overselling and if that is what fits your needs then that is the host you should go with. Either way it is not HG or any hosts fault that you fail to understand the model they use before you sign up. So calling someone a con is way off the mark. There is plenty of room in the industry for both models.
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| Posted by hfohrman, 09-04-2005, 12:13 PM |
| Overselling is one of the parameters you have to investigate before you select an account to buy. That is a parameter that some companies says yes to and some says no. And in the same way that som companies have fantastico and some don't that must be a part of your decission when you select.
And Hostgator do not say anything on there web site about overselling so I have not told that they allow.
And if you had sent them an email before sign up they would have told you.
And if you do not like it. Just move away. There is many other that allow overselling. And maybe you still have the 30-day money back guarantee.
Hans
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| Posted by SoftWareRevue, 09-04-2005, 12:25 PM |
| I believe you will. So, there's no point in debating the un-debatable.
Thread Closed.
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